Michael Moore’s Sicko: Is America’s Health Care System Sick?

The movie is more about how regular insured people get hosed over by their health insurance companies, however it starts out with a few stories of uninsured Americans.

One guy cut the tops of two fingers off, the middle and ring fingers, in a table saw accident. The cuts on both fingers were within millimeters of being in the same spot, yet he was told it would cost $12,000 to reattach the ring finger tip and $60,000 to reattach the middle finger tip.

He could barely afford the ring finger, but nobody obviously could afford the $60k surgery. Why would one be so ridiculously more expensive than the other?

His severed middle finger was said to have been dumped in an Oregon landfill, apparently a common place for body parts that cannot be reattached (for medical or insurance reasons).

The point was not belabored, but it stuck with me. All across America, we are essentially throwing people out in the trash because of our broken health care system.

What kind of a society are we that throws people out with the garbage?

I’m a fan of Micheal Moore’s work as well. Although some don’t like his “in your face” style of investigative reporting, at least he’s out there trying to get answers for the American public on important and sometimes controversial topics. I bet if each one of us demanded answers and demanding change or reform from the people that run this country, we’d be in a lot better shape. After all our government is supposed to work FOR US, not against us. Or not for the highest bidder. Somewhere along the way we lost sight of our values and what we stand for in this country, and now its going to take a lot of hard work and dedication to bring this country back to something we can all be proud of. We could all learn a lesson or two from Mr Moore and his way of confronting the tough issues and confronting the people that are in charge of said issues. We’ve let our government and big business run this country into the ground and something needs to be done about it.

I look forward to seeing this film, as I’ve enjoyed all of his previous documentaries. People either love em or hate em, but one thing is true, he’s not afraid to stand up for what he believes and for that alone, I have alot of respect for the man. We all know this countries healthcare system is in a state of crisis. Now what are we going to do to change it? What CAN we do?

Not to mention the utter absurdity of how most insurance will not cover birth control but will cover vasectomies.

Does he address the millions of people who receive medicaid benefits? I’m just wondering where that fits into his “socialized medicine” proposal. I agree, insurance companies and drug companies are in it for the almighty dollar and end up making some ridiculous choices; I don’t know what the answer is, however, because medicaid and medicare don’t seem to be the answer, either.

No problem Joe. I wasn’t offended in any way! Its just nice to see this issue being discussed again.
Thanks for posting the link though, that was nice.

Thank God we live in America and we are all entitled to our opinions. Everyone has an opinion, and here is mine on Michael Moore…

What a friggin’ hack. He has not produced anything on film or print that wasn’t ripped apart for being biased, manipulating garbage. The fact that he has “fans” absolutely baffles me - probably the same people that buy (or support) carbon credits.

That’s my opinion.

I will not argue with the fact that health care in the United States is flawed and needs fixing, but to believe Moore’s spin on things is pure idiocy. Is Socialism really the answer? Moore has produced books and movies to convince us that the government is bad, and now he wants us to adopt a government operated health care system and believe that it will work better than the system we have now?

Go do some research – look in to how long you have to wait for medical treatment in the UK, Canada, or France. How many of them are moving towards privatization? How about the cost of universal health care? It sure as hell ain’t free.

http://blogs.nypost.com/movies/archives/2007/06/kyle_smith_on_m.html

No doubt there are dozens of conflicting reviews of “Sicko” out there. Moore does seem to have a fan base for reasons I cannot understand. Maybe someone in this thread can enlighten me. But not with praise for his “’in your face’ style of investigative reporting.” I laughed so hard when I read that part that I nearly wet myself.

The link you provided is to the NY Post, not the most revered bastion of journalistic integrity.

The piece begins by claiming Moore wants our health care system run by Fidel Castro.

Ummm, no he never said that. He went to Cuba, along with other countries, to film and learn about their socialized heath system.

Please point to the part where Moore really says Fidel Castro should run our health care system.

The article next states that Moore’s ideas are so silly they are like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

There’s a name for that type of argument, I cannot recall the term. Basically it means tying your argument to a basic analogy that cannot be refuted, even though the terms of tying them together do not make logical sense.

Two strikes and that source is out for me. There’s intelligent discussion and there’s demeaning name calling. Your source does not contain reliable logic in my opinion, just a hate-filled agenda.

I think everybody in America is not happy with the current state of health care (except the fat cat insurance companies raking in billions). However, having Michael Moore be the mouthpiece for the argument for reform is like asking Al Sharpton to be the voice of healing to bring all of us together.

I think that we have too much regulatory oversight of health care in this country and the costs get passed onto us. For example, it can take hundreds of millions to test medications before market. It doesn’t cost that much in Britain, Australia, or Canada? Are people dying over there due to meds being put out for sale before they were safe. Nope.

Doctors come out of medical school owing huge sums of money….they also have to take out malpractice insurance which is nearly prohibitive to practice. There was a good discussion on tort reform and caping awards. This has helped to a certain degree by keeping malpractice insurance premiums from skyrocketing and putting doctors out of business. However, I think that we could and should set up programs to subsidize medical training for young doctor candidates. They can work it off in the communities/states that supported them and keep reasonable fees. The more competition we can create in the health care arena, the more that prices can be kept lower. There is a doctor in IF (can’t remember his name) that actually does house calls and has very little staff….he doesn’t charge as much…but I don’t think he takes insurance either (thus, he doesn’t need as much staff….which drives up his overhead and forces prices up). This is a novel approach. If more of us supported doctors that took this approach we could drive these other turkeys and insurance carriers out of business.

Mike has a novel idea there: subsidizing health care worker education.

By doing this, we can raise the entrance and performance requirements of those entering the subsidized learning programs, and get highly qualified health care workers as a result.

Moore noted that some other countries do this already, subsidizing university studies. Perhaps only health care and teacher-education programs should be subsidized?

The point Moore made about why subsidized health care education is important, is precisely because doctors then graduate without hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt, and they can afford to generalize, they don’t have to sweat billing right away, which helps keep costs down.

Point well made Guest.
Obviously unclestinky doesn’t like Micheal Moore and his style of reporting and that’s fine. Everyone has a right to their opinion. But you can’t deny the fact that he talks about the issues that are important to this country. At least he’s out there doing something instead of just complaining about it.
And obviously he’s doing something right if so many people agree with him and his point of view.

Universal healthcare has worked for all the other industrialized countries, so why not give it a shot here? Or at least some form of it?
Sure there are long wait times, but he explained why that was. I guess you missed that part. There are different types of medical needs obviously. If you have an emergency that needs immediate attention, you go to the head of the line, if you’re having an elective surgery or one that isn’t an emergency, then of course you’re going to wait. What’s wrong with that? It makes perfect sense to put the guy that needs open heart surgery ahead of the one that needs his tonsils taken out.
As far as your standard Dr.s visit for say the flu, or the chicken pox, etc. there aren’t long waits like people think. Most waiting periods have to do with surgeries, and it’s only fair that their performed by order of importance.

Sure we’ve got some of the best Doctors in the world, but at what cost to the public? There are people going bankrupt and losing their life savings, their houses, etc because the insurance companies won’t cover them. And hospitals won’t admit them without the proper coverage.

Tell me please, what are your suggestions to fixing our “flawed” healthcare system?

meso, good points, however…

Have you seen the movie? Please do, because it addresses the points you doubt. Whether you agree afterwards or not is a different matter, but I encourage you to at least watch the movie.

“I don’t know when it became fashionable for Americans to expect the government to carry them from cradle to grave as far as health care is concerned.”

Sicko points out several things are already socialized in America: schools, fire departments, police forces, libraries, snow plowing, etc. You could call it fashionable, you could also call it precedent for societal good.

“Why should an individual who excersises every day, eats a healthy diet and watches his weight have to pay the medical bills for some beer guzzling couch potato who smokes, eats at McDonalds and is 75 lbs. overweight?”

Sicko also addresses that “paying for the irresponsible” mentality. Do only irresponsible people get hit by a drunk driver and need health care? Do only irresponsible people get pancreatic cancer? Do only irresponsible people get old?

Of course not, and today’s problem is that perfectly responsible Americans have unforeseen and perfectly normal health problems, but in our system they are punished for trying to get health care.

“Perhaps good health care should start first with campaign finance reform in this country.”

Absolutely! Sicko addresses the problems of health insurance and pharmaceutical companies buying members of congress and the president.

We should insist on our elected leaders pledging to not accept health industry campaign contributions. I agree that political campaigns need to be cleansed of corrupt money, but that alone will not fix our for-profit health care system that does not actually make us healthier.

I found an interesting article on The Heritage Foundation website:

State-Based Health Reform: A Comparison of Health Insurance Exchanges and the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program
by Robert E. Moffit, Ph.D.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/wm1515.cfm

The article addresses another option for health-care, Moore isn’t the only one trying to address this issue, he just gets more media coverage for his films, which is a very different topic, Moore claims to provide a ‘documentary’ which actually insults those who really do make documentaries.

“Health Care relationships need to stay with the patient and the doctor”

Absolutely. Right now insurance companies control that relationship, correct? If you cannot pay, the doctor cannot see you.

We have tried the for-profit health care system for decades, and Americans have the worst health care system among industrialized nations as a result.

I understand the reluctance to trust government with our health care. I disagree it will be a complete failure, we can look to the best of other socialized health systems for guidance.

But ok, if not government run, and if not for-profit run, what then?

How else can a national health care system run if not publicly funded or privately insured?

Joe, when you say Americans have the worst health care system in the civilized world, what do you mean? Is it the technology, medical practicioners ability, medicines, or the way individuals take care of themselves?

Also, what about the attorney’s who chase ambulances, or encourage people to sue so they don’t have to take personal responsibility for their own health actions? What part do these type of attorney’s and individuals who blame and play victim play in this health care system?

Another thing about personal and professional responsibility, Sicko features doctors who admit they were paid by the health insurance companies to leverage their expertise in denying coverage to patients.

In one case, a doctor at trial admitted he never even saw the denial letters, never reviewed the cases. The health insurance company employed non-doctors to come up with excuses to deny people, then stamped the doctor’s signature on the denials so the insurance company could say they had a “second medical opinion” that the treatment was unnecessary.

In another case, Linda Pino (spelling?) testified before Congress on May 30, 1996 that she had been employed by Humana to essentially murder people. She was well-rewarded for using her medical expertise for the company’s financial benefit, i.e. denying medical coverages.

Maybe we should start with enforcing responsibility of these doctors and insurance companies?

Ask anyone old enough to qualify for Medicare if they think that system works. If you want an example of low administration costs vs. number of people covered, Medicare sure looks like the way to go.

I know that my mother was well taken care of during her struggle with cancer, by Medicare. I don’t know how our family would have handled her illness if she had not be old enough to be covered by “socialized medicine.”

Then, my brother became too ill to be taken care of at home anymore. His MS, diabetes, & bouts with cancer took their toll. He wasn’t old enough to qualify for Medicare. His veteran’s benefits & private insurance didn’t even come close to covering the costs of nursing care. His wife finally had to divorce him (on paper) & take all of their family’s assets in order for him to qualify for Medicaid. Once Medicaid kicked in, they never had any more financial problems taking care of his needs.

So, just from my personal experience, I see where “socialized” or universal health care works. I’m still not entirely convinced that’s our answer, but it looks better & better to me all the time.

I guess the alternative is to regulate the heck out of the private insurance industry. Limits on profits, better arbitration on disputed claims, guaranteed coverage for citizens regardless of employment or health status, those types of things. Once you start considering the consequences, government provided health insurance starts looking pretty good.

We’re a society run by big corporations and the politicians that are beholden to them.

This movie is stunning, I haven’t cried like that in years.

I am no Michael Moore fan, Bowling for Columbine was retarded and embarrasing. I was somewhat reluctant to see Sicko, but the subject has been on my mind a lot.

Regardless of your convictions, please see this film and take as many to see it as possible. Moore has never been this lucid or well-documented.

Even CNN gave him thumbs up on his research, and I think that says a lot. I have yet to see anybody write or say anything intelligent in criticizing this effort that has actually seen the film. Even if you do find good points to lambaste, disregarding the overall message here is akin to Holocaust Revisionism based on the argument of total fabrication of events, in my humble opinion. Please don’t shoot the messenger, not this time.

I loved the surprising treatment that Hillary Clinton recieves in the film, although I was really squirming at first. Nixon and Bush also end up making Hitler look like a long-lost cousin.

It’s so refreshing to see that Moore maintains no loyalty to rich investors, and instead secretly rescues his greatest detractor from personal oblivion.

Sicko is probably the best single statement on the state of modern American consciousness that is currently widely available, particularly given Moore’s dedication of so much time in this film comparing the lifestyles of citizens of our closest neighbors.

You cannot rationally dismiss this expose’ of America’s threatening collapse without completely avoiding to watch the film.

Too bad it’s too late to be “cautionary”.

Time for me to step in an set some facts straight. Just to be clear, I’m not a fan of Michael Moore’s previous work, but can’t wait to see this film. My #1 reason, from what I’ve read, is he really shows the INSURANCE companies for what they are.

Now to address what has been written and is not the most current or correct information.

1. Mike from post 15 wrote, “Doctors come out of medical school owing huge sums of money…they alo have to take out malpractice insurance which is nearly prohibitive to practice.” Others added similar comments.

Mike, Meso, Joe, CR67 and others, I appreciate your idea, but do you know it’s been in place, at least in ID, for probbaly 30-40 years? I don’t believe we need ANOTHER program, we just need the current
3R program, just a better utilization and understanding of 3R. Not familiar with 3R, it’s how Idaho is able to recruit many physician to underserved areas.

Look it up, and here’s a hint, along with underserved medical care, the 3Rs stand for: Rural, Recruitment and Rentention. READ what physician (U.S. or Foreign trained can get if they will work in a 3R setting).

And it’s not just 3R, many hospitals will grant Visa or J1 waiver to physicians agreeing to practice at their small facilities for the required 3+ years, depending on the program.

Maybe there need to be bigger discussions about 3R and other incentives, but I can guarantee you that on physician employment websites, it is very clear whether the recruiting hospital/practice etc. will help offset or pay for the training incurred by a primary care or subspecialty physician.

EIRMC estimates it takes $1,000,000 to recruit a physician. Think about it - with a guaranteed income for at least 1-2 years, plus paying off certain medical student loans and sometimes fellowship stipdents, that $1,000,000.00 gets consumed quite fast. Another area hospital, who was so desperate for certain physicians, paid everything they could of educational expenses and other perks for physicians.

As expensive as medical education is, and up front it looks overwhelming, be sure the hospitals are aware of the costs. Even 5-10 years ago hospitals weren’t nearly as flexible about how to compensate a new primary care physician or specialist. Now, many possibilities that didn’t use to be possible are.

Also, the military and US Indian Health Service have always been available to medical students as ways of paying part or all of their costs of their medical education. The costs is years of their lives in military bases treating military families.
Before anyone trashes the military here, better check with your own doctors as you might be surprised how many dozens of local doctors who didn’t come from backgrounds able to pay “cash for tuition” have used the military for their education and paid it back with anywhere from 2-10 years of service.

I can think of at least 3 local physicians who did it the entirely hard way, going to the military medical school in D.C.(which is automatically a 10 year pay back, but no costs of tuition etc. for medical school).

Their years paid back start in their Internship and Residency years. But, most are through their training by 5-7 years after medical school graduation, so that gives the military 0-5 years more of attending physicians to train other residents.

If you don’t think our military does anything well, by all means, call ahead of time and make sure none of your doctors did any National Guard deferrals/training/benefits, 2-3 years Practicing on a Indian Reservation or in other locales. No a military trained physician doesn’t get to chose where s/he practices. But, it’s been my experience those physicians don’t tend to complain about as many things as some who paid low cost tuition and went into residency and then practice seem to complain about endlessly.

3. Babs - in your answer #7, I don’t agree with your statement, ” I agree, insurance companies and drug companies are in it for the almighty dollar and end up making some ridiculous choices.” Don’t get me wrong, I’m defending NO INSURANCE company. However, if people want better, safer drugs, do you have any idea how much it takes to develop them and all the stages involved?

Some think they understand about drug development as they may have participated or had a family member/friend who was part of a drug trial. Good for all of you. Do you have a clue of how much the lab draws, to test previously undetermined levels of new drugs cost to run? Do you even have a clue how much the samples cost to ship to reference labs, especially now with IATA ensureing ever site has at least one person IATA-certified?

I made an error one day filling out a FedEx Shipping Document and by “error” didn’t put the 3rd party payors information in. So in about a month, I got a bill from FedEx for the box, under 5 lbs. that cost $97.00 to ship to the reference lab. That’s the day I started thinking about the costs of other lab tests and procedures for clinical trials.

And the clinical trials can only occur after the trials on laboratory animals. PETA lovers - here I am - I support research using rodents and other larger animals that have certain systems that work similar to humans. But, once again, does anyone here know how much it costs to buy a specific breed of mice/rats that have been genetically altered to have the medical conditions in research?

Where do you think pharmaceutical companies get an idea of how much of a dose is the right dose? I know this is the ONLY good reason mice/rats are on the earth. And after their trials, then often come other animals.

Only after all the various animal models have been worked out will Phase I trials start. And ONLY HEALTHY (USUALLY MALES, due to unknown reproductive issues) are allowed to enroll in these trials. They are hospitalized during their trial period. Phase I trials occur in few locations.

Even Phase II trials, which go to locations throughout the U.S., can only go to practitioners experienced enough with both the disease and the pharmacology to understand the PK dynamics and not botch these very expensive, timed lab tests. The results of Phase II trials set up the parameters for Phase III and later Phase IV.

I can’t remember who wrote it, but whomever wrote that Europe and Canda (essentially) can get new drugs out cheaper and faster than the U.S., um could you give me your sources? And since when did U.S. companies not work with those pharmaceutical companies.

I’m particularly interested in the process in Canada, as someone appears to know. Tell me what you know and then I’ll admit to what I do or don’t know, having a regulatory agency, to whom I must answer, now located in Victoria, B.C.

I strongly recommend until you see the direct prices involved with clinical development of a drug, you don’t trash pharmaceutical companies too far.

3. This ties in to my last point and that is the failure of protection of pharmaceutical companies in developing vaccinations or other drugs.

It’s not by chance most immunizations are now made overseas. Maybe Babs or others can tell us how that stops the horrific lawsuits that forced this step a few decades ago.

As others have pointed out, malpractice attorneys help drive up costs in some areas, given how aggressive they are. As a nation, we pay for it when malpractice goes unchecked in Las Vegas, NV and other locations. So it is not just what goes on with ID that matters. ID is where we have the most control, but this is a bigger issue.

Babs, in the Tort Reform thread, mentioned any presentation could be slanted. Babs is right and that is why there is both an attorney for the defendant and the plaintiff in malpractice cases. That’s also why certain physicians and others REFUSE to take medical cases, given what the attorneys want for free. On a different day I’ll post about that back on Tort Reform.

My goal is not to beat up attorneys, Babs. I’m glad you formally announced on this site that you have been a practicing attorney.

My goal is to make sure much more of the truth is told (just like Babs did when she mentioned WHO pays the cost for expert witnesses and filing costs etc.) in malpractice cases. Most people simply don’t know the ramifications malpractice suits can have, to other patients, in dealing with attorneys etc.

4. Mike, I’m not picking on you, but your statement in #24 is laughable. “Right now, with Medicare and Medicaid alot of doctors don’t have to compete for business. ” With all due respect (as I do think you are trying to help here, not mock and detract), what physicians accept Medicare and Medicaid and don’t have to compete for business? HUH?!

Most doctors LIMIT how many Medicaid or Meidcare patients they will take. Do me and others here a favor. Take 15 minutes of your time tomorrow and call as many doctor’s offices as your can (various specialties) and see how soon you can get your “hypothetical Medicaid family member and appt.”.

NO PRACTICE has to take Medicaid or Medicare and many have shut off how many they will take. Where I work, we had to.

Do you have any idea how much extra paperwork both programs involved? And they pay when they want to, not on time.

One can always tell when it’s nearing 1/1, 4/1, 7/1, or 10/1 as Medicaid payments stopp about 6 weeks before their next funding cycle. Medicare payments stop sometimes 2 months before their next funding cycle.

So let’s put this in perspective, for a physician to “get” to treat a Medicaid or Medicare patient, that means s/he will be paid about 35-40% of the cost of the visit, and then wait months or even years for payment (we got a $7,000 back payment last year from one of these two -I won’t identify). They apologize for forgetting to pay us for patients X for about 18 months. Yet, we’re suppose to pay our bills on time.)

Let us know Mike how many practices even accept Medicaid, besides the Urgent Cares and Hospitals. PLEASE, let us know. A few more will accept Medicare both because of the age groups affected and Medicare pays slightly better than Medicaid.

Every physician I know has treated Medicaid/Medicare patients. But where s/he has to draw the line and say no more or NONE so that medical office can stay in business, is different for each practice. Remember, like other things, those doctors who do procedures, such as
deliveries, surgeries and endoscopies etc. are paid better than the doctors who listen to your complaints and try to work them up, but don’t perform surgery or procedures.

4. I love it when people trash U.S. facilities and say they want socialized or universal health care like other countries have. RIGHT. Some people are mad because they waited 2-5 hrs. to have a CT or other test performed and it ruined their day.

In Canada, directly above us, in Alberta, unless there has been a new equipment purchase made of which I am not aware, the City of Idaho Falls has more MRI and CT scanners than the Province of Alberta.

Many speculate that is why Kalispell, certain border cities in WA State and other northern U.S. facilities have so many more doctors than appear necessary. Those with money in Canada, bypassing the WEEKS of waiting for a CT scan, or worse yet, the months for an MRI scan, and go to the U.S. for care.

I was so surprised one day when I was in either Edmonton or Vancouver years ago, to learn that there is a Blue Cross Blue Shield of Canada. I wondered why, if their universal health care was so good would anyone want health insurance?

Canada has two tiers of health care: those who remain in Canada for care and those who cross over to the U.S. and get care.

I do know that companies, such as some pharmaceutical companies some want to condemn, with little to know thorough knowledge of thier costs, make health care insurance available to their Canadian employees too. What?

Why would U.S. companies provide health insurance to Canadian employees? Doesn’t Canada have it all, including one of Microsoft’s major call centers in Nova Scotia?

5. Finally, for now, say whatever you want and believe about the insurance companies. I point to the “big buildings” as my evidence.

How many new or bigger buildings do most health insurance companies buidl or occupy? I wish I could have an office as elegant as most of theirs.

I worked P/T for 8 years for a Fortune 500 Health Insurance Company. I know a lot about how they work, from being a direct employee, from being a provider awaiting payments or having patients not get the services they need and from being a patient and not being able to have my own healthcare insurance pay for things they would have paid for 15 years ago.

I hope Michael Moore’s movie can get more people demanding changes in healthcare coverage and expose where the real problems are. I know a lot of healthcare professionals that are no fans of Michael Moore, but if he can get the focus on where it needs to be, the insurance companies, they all plan on attending his movie.

After all, it only takes seeing a Medicaid patient at $31.00 reimbursement/hour in some specialties, of work to spring for 2 tickets and maybe a soda. Or, just wait for the DVD. Oh shoot, that doesn’t cover any overhead.

Well maybe one of the networks will pick it up soon, or maybe instead of a letter thanking physicians for being patient for not receiving their due payments (as one insurer does) than can send out their $30.00 “interest on what is owed check” along with a DVD copy of Moore’s film.

I think that may be one of the best answers to critics of socialized medicine: better late than never.

Better to have some long waits than to never get the care due to insurance hassles.