Idaho Falls Police Union Pros and Cons
Today’s Post Register ran a front page article about our local Idaho Falls police officers’ efforts to unionize themselves. This should present an interesting series of developments in the next several months, so I thought a discussion forum would be good on the topic.
Why should our police unionize? Why should they not?
The officer apparently spearheading the unionization efforts, Brad Landes, sounds confident that a unionization support vote would get way more than the 50% needed. They may discover the union support-membership gap in right-to-work states like Idaho, where unionized workplaces must cover all employees but they cannot force employees to pay into the union. The gap appears between initial support for a union and who is still a paying union member one or two years down the road.
Idaho state law does not require cities to collectively bargain with any unions besides firefighters. Idaho Falls voluntarily bargains with the electrical workers union, however this could be due to the high market demands of those workers. Anyone know the market demands on good police officers?
If the city council does not recognize the union and agree to bargain with them, Landes indicated their backup plan would be a local public ballot vote. However, city attorney Dale Storer indicated that may not be able to legally force the city’s hand in this manner.
All other major Idaho cities except Twin Falls and Idaho Falls have police unions. The Boise police union protested a couple months ago, and serious tensions mounted. Landes said the Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) would not allow strikes locally, but the Boise police action was described as a protest, which sounds like it could still happen in Idaho Falls. Aren’t the Boise police also part of the FOP?
The question becomes, why bother with a union if you willingly take the work stoppage lever off the table?
Oh my yes, this should be an interesting discussion the next several months. What do you think about an Idaho Falls police union?
One aspect the PR published was that officers want an off-the-job-injury policy reinstated. Chief Livsey apparently stopped the policy a few months ago, which allows officers injured off duty to perform light duty and still get fully paid. Chief Livsey felt the policy was being abused by too many officers.
On one hand, most of us civilians will simply lose our jobs if we cannot perform them due to an off-the-job injury. You have to use up your sick and vacation time, and if you still cannot perform your work and lose your job, that is just a tough part of life. You get back into the workforce when you are able to really work again.
On the other hand, why don’t the police officers get a short-term and long-term disability benefit plan, which pays employees when the get injured in this manner and cannot work? This would seem to be the best solution. The disability coverage companies are known to be very tough with people trying to skim the system. Also, if there is light duty work needed to be performed, perhaps one or two slots could be open for officers to work light duty. Any more could be denied and forced to use their accrued time off.
Should taxpayers have to pay for this perk? Shouldn’t the police just have a normal disability benefit coverage like private sector jobs do?
In light of the current rumors about the rise in Police Officer’s medical deductible (rumor has it that it will be going up 150%), no pay raises to speak of for the last several years (10 years ago, IF was ranked #2 in the State for pay, now they are down to 22d in the State) and their Cost of Living Allowance not keeping up with inflation, I guess I can’t blame them for wanting to unionize. There are only a few professions where the employee is expected to put their life in jeopardy to protect someone else. Police officers are one of those professions. Shouldn’t they be compensated for this? The majority of the City Council doesn’t seem to think so. In order to keep up financially and support their families, I feel that they have no choice but to unionize.
A couple of comments seeing as someone very close to me is part of this. And admittedly this is being written with heavy input from this person.
Joe, you totally misrepresented the off the job injury thing in your first post. Most people DO NOT lose their jobs if they are hurt off duty. If you sprain your ankle can you still work? If you break a non essential bone can you still work? Heck, even if you break a leg can you still work? For most of you the answer is yes because these things won’t stop you from being able to do your job. For a police officer its no. And actually this only effects certain police officers, those who work the streets, if your an office police officer your not affected. For many years officers have been allowed to work in other jobs at the department, dispatch or records for instance, while they recover. But the incident the brought this to a head involved a female officer who broke a bone in her wrist off duty earlier this year and had to have surgery. She had only been there a few years and didn’t have much sick leave built up. The doctors told her that it would be several months before she would be cleared to work on the street but she would be out of a cast and have use of her hand in weeks, just not a lot of strength in that wrist. She was not given a light duty assignment as countless other officers have been. Many hurt officers in the past have gone to dispatch where there is always a huge shortage. She could have typed with that hand and it would have been a win win situation since she would still be getting paid and filling a vacancy at dispatch. Instead she felt screwed over by the administration and ended up quitting.
You also misrepresented the strike issue and implied the police might strike anyway. This is not the case. The Fraternal Order of Police DOES NOT allow striking and the officers in the FOP would never strike. If they did they would be immediately kicked out of the FOP. This isn’t even being considered. A protest such as happened in Boise is not the same thing as a strike. Officers still were going going to work and serving the community. They just collectively voiced their displeasure with how things were going. You can essentially say that what the IFPD officers are doing right now is a protest against the treatment they have received from the city and their administration.
This push to unionize has come about for many reasons some which are:
1) IFPD’s pay has dropped severely relative to other departments in the state. Their pay only looks good when compared to other agencies within 50 miles (excluding Pocatello) as this whole section of the state is depressed. Starting pay for officers in places like Boise and Nampa is higher than what a ten year veteran at the IFPD makes. This is why the IFPD and BCSO are having such hard times recruiting. The only thing keeping the IFPD afloat right now is all the officers they keep hiring away from the BCSO who are even worse off.
2) The city justified the bad pay because they have the “cadillac” (Craig Lord’s words) of benefit plans. Well thats likely going away this year as well.
3) Treatment by the administration. Be it the loss of light duty assignments or rogue supervisors running roughshod over employees the morale at the IFPD has been steadily declining for a long time.
4)Out of touch supervisors. In many jobs there is a huge disconnect between those actually doing the job and those supervising them. The IFPD is no exception and for a long time there has been a feeling by the street level officers that the administrators don’t get it. The police world has changed in the 20 years its been since they were on the street yet they don’t seem to get that. Back when they were real cops, the police beat the crap out of anyone who talked back to them so people were afraid to resist arrest or be mouthy to cops because they knew if they did a beating was coming. Please don’t misunderstand, I’m not suggesting that things should return to that. Police don’t do that anymore and the bad guys know it so the bad guys verbally push and push and push the officers and aren’t afraid to resist arrest because the know the officers aren’t going to do anything about it. And they are all hoping for a Rodney King payday.
On the positive side, officers are apparently gushing over the fact that their new Captain, Steve Roos, is actually going out on patrol and taking calls - something not a single other Captain or the Chief has ever done. He’s done this now several hours a day for a week, his first week as patrol Captain, and that simple action has gained him more respect than you can possibly imagine. Because he’s trying to see things from the from the officer’s perspective and apparently he’s amazed at what things are really like and how all these “ideas” of the adminstration about how things should work are completely different on a street level. He’s also riding with a training officer and he’s made many mistakes that the training officer has had to correct him on but he’s completely understanding and accepts the retraining positively. Unfortunately Roos is the exception not the rule as he’s just a lone voice of supervisor reason in a wilderness of out of touch supervisors.
Sounds like the chief of police was less than honest in the newspaper in regards to why he got rid of light duty. In any discussion its always good if all sides are telling the truth and here is the real story. But first some background on the issue.
The IFPD has long allowed injured officers to work light duty assignments. A officer, who has since departed for the greener pastures of the Boise PD, had surgery on his feet and spent nearly six months in dispatch. This saved him money and it saved dispatch since dispatch is always understaffed. Another officer came down with some sort of intestinal disease and he too went to work dispatch for months and helped them out out in another period of dispatcher crisis. Another officer had back surgery from an on duty injury and spent nearly a year in dispatch. I could cite many more examples but will skip it as I’m only trying to illustrate that this is a well established practice. And since dispatch is constantly understaffed and overtime is through the roof this is a good place for officers on a lengthy recovery.
Okay, now here is why the policy really went away. An officer was hurt badly while on duty. It was his own fault as he was screwing around at the firearms range and while horseplaying he pulled down a several hundred pound chunk of metal on his head causing brain damage. Its been two years and his vision is still messed up although he’s mostly 100% otherwise. It was his own fault but it was considered an on duty injury and covered under workman’s comp. He worked a succession of light duty assignments for well over a year while the city doctors, his own doctors, and lawyers for both sides wrangled over whether he could ever come back to work in a normal capacity. One of the arguments of his and his lawyers was that he should be allowed to continue working in a light duty capacity since officers were always doing this. To combat this argument the chief did away with light duty since if there is no light duty then there is no position for this officer to come back to. It had nothing to do with officers abusing the policy but rather was a knee jerk reaction to the ongoing legal battle over this officer’s work status. In the end he was finally medically retired a few months ago, not so coincidentally at nearly the same time the chief did away with light duty, and is no longer on the IFPD.
Thought I’d comment on a few other things Joe brought up that haven’t been mentioned yet.
First of all lets talk about the market demand for officers. Ten years or so ago when the IFPD was the 2nd highest paying agency in the state there routinely were 300-400 people testing for 1-2 positions. Now the IFPD counts themselves lucky to get 50 at a test of which at least half will be excluded for criminal / drug histories. This is not an problem that plagues the IFPD alone. All police agencies are struggling with recruiting as fewer and fewer people with good records are willing to take jobs in the police field given the low pay and poor treatment by the public / employers / press. Many agencies, Boise PD for example, have responded by making themselves highly attractive to potential recruits by giving good salaries / benefits. Others like Idaho Falls have just raided other worse off departments like the Bonneville County Sheriff’s office from whom the IFPD in the last few years hired away Officer’s Proctor, Steele, J. Miller, Schwict, B. Miller, Deede, Murdock, Morgan, Storer, and Siddoway just to name a few. And apparently several BCSO officers are at the top of the current hiring list. That source isn’t going to last forever as its getting to the point that everyone on the BCSO is brand new or don’t want to give up their adminstrative / detective / supervisor positions. Furthermore, Idaho is already a bad state for recruiting officers given Idaho is one of the few states nationwide to not have 20 year retirements - something mostly not in the IFPD’s control. So if Idaho Falls wants to remain attractive to potential officers who are willing to overlook Idaho’s retirement problems it needs to offer competitive salaries.
The fact that Idaho is a right to work state is not nearly as much a problem as you might think. IN fact in this case I don’t think it would be a problem at all. There are other benefits to being a member of the Fraternal Order of Police and as such around 70 officers (about 80%) of the IFPD were already members before this union talk came up and will undoubtedly remain members. The primary benefit is legal defense. Police work is a very risky field for being sued or being disciplined administratively. I could cite many many cases of officers were driven out of jobs for political reasons because they arrested the mayors son, or had a shooting that was deemed “political”, etc. Think about all the stories you hear about nationwide where officers shoot someone and then Monday Morning Quarterbacking begins. The 70 officers on the IFPD gladly already paid dues each month for the legal defense which guaranteed them a lawyer in case they needed one. This doesn’t mean departments can’t fire officers who need to be fired as both of the fired officers involved in the DUI crash a number of years ago were FOP members. It just helps guarantee that officers will be treated fairly. So I really wouldn’t expect a change in membership if unionship is gained.
Lastly, the Boise PD and their protest were brought up. Its very important to realize that their union is not an FOP union. Many Boise PD’s officers are also members of the FOP for the legal defense I talked about above but their union is another entity entirely. Besides which, a protest is not a strike.
Unionizing without the threat of strike is useless. All it does is suck employee money into a black hole and waste time and energy. The local FOP and local officers should focus on getting someone elected to the City Council that will prioritize their pay and benfits. That will do more to improve the situation than starting up a union without teeth.
I agree with Mike. Strikes are the real reason unions can be effective. Taking a strike off the table is like carrying a gun but swearing not to ever load a bullet. I don’t see how a union without striking ability can be more than a complaining nuisance.
But I do appreciate the education 8^)
Disturbing Thoughts: I’m glad you have some kudos for Roos for a job well started, good to hear the good and the bad.
You raise a good issue about off-the-job injuries and if they affect your work. Yes you can often work in some cases, depending on the injury. However if you are injured to the point of not being able to perform your job, most private jobs will just lay you off.
The PR quoted Chief Livsey that he wants officers at 100% efficiency, so there may be a higher standard for police than civilians. Is the standard too high? How much of an injury must it take to not be allowed to do your normal duty?
One important reason to unionize is that you get to include a steward in your discipline meetings. The steward (hopefully) knows more about the rules and procedures than you do, so they can help identify and stop improper actions by supervisors.
Given what we have heard about the city’s grievance procedures, this could be a valuable thing.
If the police unionize, should the rest of city employees unionize together also?
When is the last time the City did a thorough compensation study? We are talking here about the PD being underpaid - I know folks in other areas of City employment that also don’t stack up to their counterparts in neighboring Cities. We just boosted the Mayor’s salary to be comparable to neighboring Mayors…maybe it’s time to look at all City employees pay…
The city did a wage comparison for police about five years ago. Instead of comparing to other cities in Idaho they compared to similar size cities in a 200 mile radius so they picked up places like Logan, UT. This was a bad way to do it for several reasons but primarily because in Utah officers have a much better retirement system so even if wages come out equivalent there is still a lot of inequity.
The results of the study showed that the IFPD was paid comparably. BUT thats only because the city rigged the study. Allegedly they compared starting wages. Yet the wage the city used was that of a 3 year officer on the department. And as any city employee can tell you since they are all on the same pay step scale your salary increase drastically your first three years by as much as $4.00 an hour. Had the city actually compared real starting wages the IFPD would have been $4.00 to $5.00 an hour below everyone else. And I’m sure that gap has only grown wider since the city hasn’t given very large cost of living increases the last few years and has done nothing to elevate overall police pay on the lower levels (The administrators got big raises a few years ago - as much as $8000 a year).
Joe, regarding post #7… how much of an injury must it take?? In most jobs you can break a finger and still go to work. As a police officer you must be able to roll on the floor in a bar fight — fighting to keep your gun out of your attackers hands. Even a broken finger could prevent you from being able to properly protect yourself or do your job. If you can’t run, fight, jump, and lift some heavy weight you really can’t go to work in a full capacity as a police officer. Not many jobs are that restrictive and have such a need for “fitness for duty” and the need for some form of “light duty.” There is some serious liability involved if someone were to be seriously injured because the cop was unable to do his/her job 100%. The light duty fucntion on the department was a good program and has helped many people over the years. It won’t be long after Livesy leaves and it will come back. One thing I can guarantee you — because I have seen it myself time after time; On that department its not about the given policy or procedure. Its about who needs what. As soon as one of the “favorite sons” needs light duty the Chief will crank out a new executive order. That department operates that way. Trust me. I know. There is hope for the future! One Old Captain just left and the other two (who REALLY need to go) are on their way this spring. If more people like Steve Roos are promoted, you will see that Department start to turn around. The troops are good for the most part. The problem with that department is (and has been for years) the administration.
That is really the question then, how much of an injury is needed to reasonably take a police officer off patrol duty, and is Idaho Falls better served long-term retaining a police officer in light duty?
I’m beginning to sense a larger question looming: has Chief Livsey played good old boy politics with an important police department policy?
Do our police officers have confidence in Chief Livsey’s administration of the Idaho Falls police department?
From what I get told if you polled the officers on the department you would probably get about a 70 - 30 % no confidence vote. If you only polled patrol officers you would get about a 95% no confidence vote.
Are there other major incidents where Chief Livsey said or did things that are viewed as harming the Idaho Falls police department?
Disturbing Thoughts: If your figures are correct or even half correct, I think that makes for a scary situation and one that should be remedied. But, I don’t know what to do about it. Any thoughts?
In thinking about the math of it, I realize 95% is too high. That would imply only 1 patrol officer would vote favorably for him. He’d likely get 5-10 officers out of 40 something.
There have been many issues that have led up to this. Certain patrol officers getting special perks like setting their own schedule so they always have weekends off, top of the line equipment while the rest have hand me downs, and their own private little office even though they are no different than anyone else except they are the favored ones.
But the issue that was the final straw is the light duty policy. I still don’t think some are getting it and they are stuck on major injuries or illness. Its the little things that kill in this case. If you are in an accident and get 20 stitches on your arm your almost certainly still able to work. Not so for a patrol officer because he might have to wrestle a bad guy and those stitches could rip open. If you sprain your ankle tomorrow you’ll go to work and gimp around but your still working. A patrol officer can’t work because he might have to run after a bad guy. If you have surgery, most of you’ll be able to return to work almost immediately with restrictions that won’t affect most workers like no heavy lifting, no running, etc. A patrol officer must wait until they are fully healed. If you have to take certain kinds of pills, like pain pills, you can most likely still work. Not so for a patrol officer whose job requires them to drive a car (a no no if your on pain pills).
There are very few other occupations that require someone to be 100% to work. Firefighters for sure but not many others. And since the city is always short dispatchers, I could cite news stories year after year talking about the dispatcher crisis, there is no credible reason not to allow officers to work in dispatch while recovering. The officer already knows radio procedure and the law so training would be limited to how to operate the computer, something that could be learned in a matter of hours.
Disturbing Thoughts: You bring up some very good points in your posts. It is evident that you have information that Joe Public doesn’t have. I for one am glad that you are bringing it out. I have a friend who also knows the “inside scoop” and your info is also verified by my friend.
I’d like an answer to post #15. What can we do about that kind of no-confidence in the administration? Do we have a prayer of getting the city council to listen?
Todays Post Register reports that 91% of the officers voted for the union. I’d say thats pretty overwhelming.
The city is graciously giving its employees a 3% cash raise, at the same time, employees will have to pay $1,500.00 on their insurance deductible instead of the current $300.00. They are patting themselves on the back for that one….. Lets see, thays a $1,200.00 out of pocket increase for employees…. That would mean that a 3% raise on $40,000.00 yearly salary would equate to $1,200.00. $1,200.00 increase in salary minus $1,200.00 out of pocket for insurance. The city gave employees nothing!!! Slight of hand and a kick in the rear, no wonder the police are forming a union.
I forgot to mention, minus taxes on a $1,200.00 salary increase.
My, isn’t the City generous? We expect these guys to protect us and put their lives on the line for us, but expect them to roll over and be grateful for the big whopping raises we give them.
Another question. Does the Police Officer with 0 dependents pay the same deductible as the Police Officer with multiple dependents?
Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?
Everyone pays the same. A city employee with no dependents gets the exact same coverage and pay as as an employee with eight dependents.
The city also refuses to shop around for better insurance and have stayed with Blue Shield for many years. Other companies like the INL change carriers nearly every year as they shop around for the best deal for their employees but the city wont even consider it. Makes one wonder if certain personnel in the city are getting kickbacks from Blue Shield to keep the policy with them.
All, I can say is thanks for nothing city leadership. In the lean years you whine and whine about how you can’t afford to give us competitive wages / benefits. And now in a boom year as has been widely reported in the media you stick it up our collective rear ends. As the saying goes, payback is a bitch.
That is a good point, Idaho Falls experienced good growth (compared to Pocatello which declined), enough to afford a couple buck tax break for residents and fund some new goodies. You would think they could take care of the people who take care of our city.
Has the city ever changed insurance carriers in the last 20 years?
Has the city investigated other carrier options in the last couple years? If our privately insured health care is supposed to thrive on competition, we should be able to shop around our several thousand employee package, right?
Also, have the remaining un-unionized city employees considered forming their own union?
Forming a union won’t put the pressure where it needs to be. The city needs to do it’s research and go and get the best deal for the taxpayers and the city workers. For some reason they don’t. The bureaucrats at City Hall messed up the grant for the Sunnyside Road expansion. They messed up the Coal Plant Project by not researching the issue better as well. It makes one wonder what they do down there all day?
The budget approval process was classic. Karen Cornwall says she is just playing the game. These politicians never really get it when they are “playing” with someone elses money. In the case of insurance, city workers end up taking a negative pay raise by the time you factor in premium increases. There has to be a change in the city council. City workers need to get behind candidates that will support them Unions only create another middle man in the process and slow things down and add more cost in dues, legal arbitration, and ill will between the parties. If the Fraternal Order of Police and other pockets of city workers can get behind a few good candidates this would be far more effective in the short and long run!!!
The getting behind elected candidates is a fools quest for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It will never realistically happen as it takes 4 of 6 candidates to effect a change. The police thought Fuhriman as mayor would be a positive change for them from the Milam era. I think most of them have sharply changed their mind and I imagine the police will be endorsing someone else come next election.
In theory I agree with Mike, but in reality it is not going to happen. Maybe by starting now, several years down the road it might — just might. From past newspaper accounts, it sounds as if the Employees (mainly the FOP) have tried to negotiate with the City Council for the past several years, but to no avail. I imagine they thought they had a winner when Fuhrimann was elected, but as we see that didn’t bear them any fruit.
So let’s see, we have a majority of the officers with a no-confidence in their leadership, a HUGE increase in their medical deductible, a negative pay raise this year, a reduction in other benefits such as light duty policy. Any others? Can anybody name anything positive that affects the police officer or city employee personally that has happened this year? No wonder they are talking about a Union. I for one hope they are successful.
Mayr talked good when said he worked our job and we don’t make enough. That setup expectation we would be getting raises. All we got was a disappointment from what he said to what he did
This was sent to me via the contact form, but I think the person meant it to be a comment:
Wow, The mayor gets a pay raise from Ida Hardcastle for bowing to her every whim and our good “Ol’ boy Mayor he doesn’t have the backbone to pass it up. Now the police are talking about going Union and the police chief want the tax payers to give him a new $10,000,000.00 (Ten Million) dollar building.
Let review the chiefs record on spending: He blows $16,000.00 on a national certification program then after spending the sixteen thousand he changes his mind and get the state certification. $16,000.00 down the tube!
Then there is the issue of the 4 motorcycles he but in his budget, when he thought Bill Shurtleff might become the Mayor. I wonder where that money went? And how about all those Tazers he purchased when one per shift cammander would have been enough, more wasted money. And Mayor Jerad could have stopped that purchase but didn’t have the backbone to do anything about it.
Now it looks like city employs are in for a cut in medical insurance and a very skimpy pay raise. Come on Mr. Mayor give up the payoff from Ida and get rid of the police Chief.
Very sincerely yours,
Watch Dog
I have to admit the $10 million dollar building is hard to take at a time when city employees are going to be experiencing a negative pay raise. This does little for morale and adds to the perception (and reality) that the Administration, including the mayor could care less. This is not leadership and it does not make sense.
I still think the City should do what the City of Pocatello did with their police department. They renovated the old store building and put the cops in that building. It looks nice and has worked well for Poky PD. Why can’t IFPD take over the old Fred Meyer/Grand Central/Albertson’s bulding right behind the current county jail and juvenile detention center?
If they want the public to support them, they have to show us better than how they are treating their own employees and our wallets.
One tazer per shift commander is not enough! each officer should carry a tazer. I still have a loved one around because he had a tazer with him. if his shift commander would have had it the consequences would have been deadly for either him or the bad guy. Please dont just jump to conclusions on topics you may not know about. ask questions and gather information from those who have knowledge about the topic.
One tazer per shift commander? What does the cop tell the bad guy? “Wait while I call my shift commander so he can bring me a tazer?”
Some of your other comments I agree with. The new law enforcement bldg — I don’t think so. Motorcycle cops — I don’t think so. The certification issue needs clarification. What is the benefit (if any) of having National Certification or State Certification? What does State Certification cost? What are the consequences of not having either?
One tazer per officer out on the beat seems more like it should be.
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but how much does each tazer cost? If they are thousands of dollars each I don’t feel that it’s necessary for each officer to have one. What did they use before tazers? Billy clubs? I have also heard of tazers being misused and even causing injury or death in some cases. If it costs tens of thousands of dollars or more to equip all of the officers with them I think the money could be spent better elsewhere.
guest, I’m sorry that your loved one had a bad experience where they felt they needed to use a tazer. I have no personal knowledge of their situation, but there may have been another remedy to ending the confrontation. I feel like some officers might get a little trigger happy when they have a tazer at their disposal.
Tasers cost a lot but save countless dollars in other ways. Use a billy club or baton as someone suggested and you risk causing serious injury to someone which means medical bills. It also doesn’t necessarily stop the person being hit since officers aren’t allowed to hit in places that actually might stop someone. This means the officer will now go hands on with a person increasing the chance of injury to the officer and suspect. This is exactly what happened some years ago in Idaho Falls when a a baton failed to stop a bad guy and the officer was forced to shoot him. A taser would have dropped the guy instantly and he’d still be alive.
Since the IFPD went to tasers both injuries to officers and suspects have gone down dramatically. Thats money saved in medical bills and money saved in time not lost while an officer heals. And it can,as in the real example above, mean someone still being alive.
And there are no documented cases of anyone dying because of a taser. This is a source of great confusion in the media. What happens is someone fights with the police, happens to get tasered, and later dies. There has never been any evidence that the person died of the taser anymore than there is evidence they died of being handcuffed. These people who die are almost always high on drugs and the medical term for what the die of is “excited delirium” which is a fancy of way of saying death due to drugs.
A couple of Points I would like to make about the City and the County government here.
During all the lean times that they claimed prevented paying raises and covering benefits most other areas in our State suffered the same money problems.
Those with responsible leaders still found ways to treat their employees fair. Here with some of the highest tax rates and a really better economic base than many other places they just put the screws to the employees.
Bonneville Co. Stopped pay raises for a couple years and made their employees start paying for benefits on top of it. The cost of living here increased just like every place else that starts growing. But poor choices with your tax dollars and the people kept paying more but the Local Government gave employees less. The area grows and they won’t hire the people to protect that growth and the citizens.
Research what your national averages show and you will find that Idaho Falls should employ between 15 and 20 more Police Officers than it does. The City and County are growing but will wait until crime and criminal gets established and the public starts screaming before they will hire the numbers they should have long ago.
Boise PD even with their pay which is much better than IFPD has more than 20 current openings. Boise has to compete with Oregon and Washington for Police Officers and pay here in Idaho does not even come close to those States.
I know very little about other City and County employees and how there pay stacks up to like jobs in similar sized cities. So I just stick to the Police issue because I know many of the local Police and Deputies. The County Government should just plain be committed for the in justice they do to the Deputies as far as pay. If most the Deputies did not have family and connections to this area they wouldn’t even think of staying here.
Many of the City Police Officers would leave for better pay and several have the only thing preventing it is ties to the community and family.
Face it this city has more money than most the cities this size in the State but they won’t pay because they don’t care about the employees. When it got too obvious they were paying too little they bought of the Police administration with a decent raise for supervisors but did nothing for the rank and file line officers. The administration was now happy and they did not help rock the boat. The Police Officers supported the new Mayor thinking he might help right the past wrongs and he lead them to believe he was in their court. Sadly he proved to be just another Politician willing to say anything to get elected. Once in Office he went strait to the front of the line to help throw the Police under the Bus. As it stands right now I would guess that he could not get 10 percent of the line Officers to support his re-election. No one believes in him anymore and they will work against his campaign for a second term.
The exception to this treatment is the City Electrical Union the City treats them really well at least compared to how they treat Law Enforcement. They are getting a nice raise and there benefit package is completely different than the rest of the City.
The FOP is trying to fix this by going Union, no they won’t strike which as was pointed out takes much of their leverage away. But if the City will agree to Collective Bargaining and actually negotiate instead of telling the Police to shut up and be happy they have a job there is a chance of improving things. Right now both City and County are lucky they have attracted and managed to employ some very good Officers. If they don’t wake up and start treating them better they could lose many and will have a much harder time attracting new people to replace them.
Another huge example of the City doing things wrong is the insurance as was stated most big companies and the majority of cities put their insurance out for bid every year. They compare the plans and take the best price for the best policy. Not here for 10 years they have not taken bids from anyone except Blue Shield and the price has gone up a large amount every year. There are many companies that would love a chance to bid on a multi million dollar contract but the city won’t talk to them. Because our City Manager doesn’t believe they will be as easy to work with. I bet when Millions are on the line a new insurer would bend over backwards to try and work with them.
Anybody else remember what happens when you just stick with the same person or company and doesn’t put it out for Bid. (Think Kimball Mason). Then there is City attorney Storer his contract has never gone out for bid either. Might be that other attorneys wouldn’t think that a public ballot could actually force elected people to do the peoples will.
This whole problem and the issues discussed in other posts about some employees being treated better. The way the Mayor does exactly what the money people who got him elected tell him to. It all boils down to Good Old Boy networks. That System is how it is done in the County and the City. Play their game become one of the Good Old Boys (chosen sons) and you will be promoted and eventually it will pay off to a select few. The rest of the guys out there doing the work putting there life on the line, well they are just little people ignore them.
Fortunately as the town grows their influence and corrupt little game will be exposed. Then hopefully they will go quietly away and new people who will take better care of both the Citizens and their Employees.
Fuhriman is turning out to be a bigger enemy to the police than Milam was when she would imply things like police officers are a dime a dozen and can be replaced easily. I don’t know if he just trying to get even for some imagined slight or if he’s trying so hard not to give an appearance of favoritism that he’s actually biased against them. Either way, I agree with the above post. Your probably going to see the police endorse his opponent next election.
As far as Fuhriman goes, make no mistake; he is and always has been a politician. Once, a long time ago, during a discussion involving some new police policy, he was asked why he (being part of the administration) didn’t voice his opposition to the policy. He was overheard saying that he would never do or say anything that could possibly jeopardize his political career.
Like I said, this was many years before even a hint of rumors were out that he would make a run for mayor. Alot of officers lost respect for him over that statement and although they were hopeful he might make a change for the better as mayor, they were not suprised when he didn’t.
No doubt Fuhriman has hopes for furthering his political career even far and beyond being the mayor of Idaho Falls. Hopefully his display as a poor leader, both as a police officer and as a mayor, will be remembered when its time to cast the ballot.
All of the comments concerning pay, benefits, etc., not only for officers but for all city employees, is a direct example of the lack of elected officials doing what they ask employees to do; their jobs.
Hold on to your hats, Idaho Falls has a City Manager and she is in favor of cutting benefits even further! One of her first comments was that Police benefits are too large in proportion to their pay. Chop chop chop. I also understand that Chief Roos is hiring a company to do an internal audit (no doubt strings being pulled by Mayor Fuhriman) with an emphisis on cutting budgets. An insider tells me that the Police Department can’t fill a position because there are no more viable candidates. Firefighters are unhappy, Electrical workers are fuming, and I dont doubt that the F.O.P. is gearing up for a law suit! Why is it that the city is in a downward spiral?? The first thing you will see is a significant downturn in the quality of service (or any service at all) coming from anyone working for the city. Fuhriman will leave a legacy, but it will be of a destroyed city government. At least the City will be in the black! To those of you who think that the “Good ol’e Boy” system was in place with Livsey, look at who Fuhriman has surrounded himself with and think about it for a couple of minutes. At least Livsey stood up for what he believed was right!
Okay, so this is a new hire for our city manager? I thought Craig Lords was our city manager, I guess I’m mixed up?
You say the idea is to cut police benefits? What about the police union contract, or what’s the status of that?
You say everyone is unhappy in our city government, but this is the first we’ve heard of discontent in awhile now. Is it all due to this new city manager, or are there other things going on, or are you just one person who is unhappy with the way things are going?
We do have a new city manager, minutes from city council: “Mayor Fuhriman introduced Julie Jackson as the new Human Resources Director for the City of Idaho Falls”.
The F.O.P. request has been denied. No contracts, no collective bargining.
Joe, if your as good friends with Fuhriman as I think you are, ask him about recent cuts in our electricl division as far as dispatchers and 10 hour days. Ask some of the officers you know about upward mobility and statements Fuhriman made about insurance cuts in the coming year. Ask Fire Fighters what their take is on all of the changes going on in that department. Things are fairly quiet now, but my humble opinion is that it won’t be for long.
Joe, if your as good friends with Fuhriman as I think you are…
Whoa now, no let me make it very clear, I think Fuhriman is a great mayor and probably a nice guy but I don’t really know him, have not worked with him, and have only met him a handful of times. Any random commenter here probably has more influence as I do 8^)
The things you report, this is news to me.
The police union was not recognized by the city? What’s the next move by the police union??
Anyone else know about these things?
The Human Resourse Manager is NOT the City Manager. Why do you say she is? She might be a manager and works for the city but she is not the City Manager.
I thought under our present form of city government, the Mayor is the person who runs the city on a day to day basis, and does the hiring and firing.
Some clarification.
The new “manager” to my understanding is merely the new hire replacement to the recently retired director of human resources Randy Allen. I don’t believe any new powers have been assigned to the position and its not a new position at all, just a new person filling it. I have no idea what her views are but its wrong to make it look like Fuhriman just created some position out of the blue.
Here is what I heard in regards to Roos tenure and the union push.
Officers by in large are much happier now with Roos as he and his new captains have done away with many ridiculous and biased policies. And there is a sense now that officers will be treated fairly rather than be judged by which clique they are in. For instance, the NPO patrol division is gone - basically it was where a select few golden boy officers of patrol hung out so they could set their own schedules and be able to work or not work whenever they felt like it.
One little sign / motto pretty much sums up the change even if its not obvious why. Under Livsey the department was constantly coming up with long winded slogans that made your head hurt just trying to read them: things like Unity with Community, zero crime is our mission, its is our goal, and we do this with professionalism. . . . . and on and on and on. Now the new slogan is “For a safer community we arrest criminals.” Short and sweet and to the point and it doesn’t sound like some desk jockey captain who hasn’t been on the streets in decades came up with it.
The push for unionization is still going as making things better morale wise in the department does nothing to combat the ever declining benefits and pay of the IFPD officers compared to the rest of the state. The officers feel that being the 3rd largest city in the state with the 3rd largest department they should be paid like it since as cities get bigger the job gets harder, more dangerous, and you need better officers.
Other have been discussing this issue in the Angie Dodge thread but it really should be happening here. Hopefully newJoe can move some comments to this thread.
This is my reply to a comment made by Guest123 in that other thread. He asked if the IFPD really needs to unionize since they are attracting officers from other departments.
Here is my reply.
Your right and your wrong about people coming to the IFPD as the IFPD has taken many officers from the Bonneville County Sheriff’s office over the last few years. But thats not because the IFPD is desirable, rather its because the BCSO is so undesirable. When you only have to move down the hall to take a four to five dollar an hour pay raise with better benefits its even more understandable. But this well is about to run dry. The BCSO has reached a point that most everyone left working for them is either in it for the long haul or rookies. And the openings for both departments are mounting as both have unfilled positions simply because they can’t attract, train, and retain good candidates fast enough. And a large part of the reason for this is because other agencies statewide and out of state are offering so much better pay and retirement packages than both the IFPD and BCSO. EVERY state around Idaho offers law enforcement officers a 20 year retirement yet Idaho offers them the rule of 80 meaning most have to work close to 30 years and then the Idaho retirement only supplements your insurance for 10 years meaning some have to work even longer until they reach age 55.
Anon #48, thanks for pointing to this post. Not everyone has explored the site to look for appropriate places to make some kinds of comments, nor was everyone here during all the times these posts were made and comments given.
Lots of time I’ll click on the “new comments” links, see what someone has said, and respond to that particular line of comments without paying attention to the original post itself. So I can understand how tangents happen/continue.
But again, thanks for pointing out that the site actually has discussed this issue before.
Interesting, Joe Vandal pretty much wrote about everything under the sun these last few years…
One more comment, because I forgot.
Its been stated in the media that the IFPD would be the first FOP union in the state. Thats true but somewhat misleading as Boise, Nampa, Pocatello, and Couer d’Alene all have unions, just not FOP ones. These departments all went union long ago before the FOP came to Idaho and started offering union services. Idaho Falls PD is simply the first to take them up on since they came.
Whaddya know, that’s the very same picture one our our illustrious news stations stole to use in one of their stories, and then couldn’t bring themselves to apologize about! Gotta love the web!
One last thing, maybe I mean it this time.
Way I hear it and from what I can see (I work somewhere in the courthouse area which is why I’m familiar with this) almost everyone at the IFPD is very very happy with the appointment of Chief Roos. They walk around like a weight has been lifted off their backs now and morale seems to be up a lot. But they also know that Chief Roos won’t be there forever and the next leader could be like the one before. Some IFPD officers are on their 5th chief now. They also know that Chief Roos can’t affect the way the city leadership treats them and can’t affect things like pay, benefits, and such. I think many in the city council thought that giving them a new Chief would make them go away but the city council learned last night that while they appreciate that it was never the only issue.
The way it was explained to me last night as I went to the council meeting to support some of my friends at the IFPD is that the IFPD union wants to take the high road on this and not be antagonistic. Thats why they courteously and respectfully went to the council meeting last night to show their desire.
And I think its been mentioned in this thread but the FOP does not allow striking and does not allow blue flues. Doing either means immediate expulsion from the FOP union.
Just to clarify my previous post (on the other thread) I really never asked why the IFPD needs to unionize. I only related my understanding of why the firefighters and electrical workers unions were recognized and the police union was not. At least I know it’s been explained that way to me before. I really don’t know enough to form an opinion on the police unionization.
Here’s a question though: If conditions are so bad at IFPD why aren’t more officers looking for jobs in other cities or states? It’s not like BCSO and IFPD are the only two choices for police jobs. I’m not baiting here, I am really trying to become educated about this issue. Thank you.
Jobs in other cities and states requires moving. Many love this area and want to stay. And their families may be here.
And the IFPD is losing officers, its just that they have been able to salvage something by hiring lots of Bonneville County deputies to to replace them.
But its not all about improving wages. A lot of it is about attracting the best recruits. The IFPD hasn’t had the best of luck the last few years in their non Bonneville County hires. And thats because the competition is so fierce statewide for the few good recruits that many times departments, especially those with less desirable wage / benefit packages, have to settle for questionable ones. And when that happens you increased risk of officers who make bad decisions in the field and who may abuse their power. IFPD recently had to fire one such new recruit after only a couple years for these very reasons.
Something I meant to add to that last part. Current officers want good recruits because they don’t want to see bad hires any more than the public do. For one thing they live here too. For another it puts them at risk both personally and professionally if they have an incompetent cop on the job.
The City Council granted the Electrical Dept. higher wages and Union Representation because they were losing those employees to better paying jobs in our surrounding area. Why then would the City Council not apply this same concept to the Police Dept.? Why would you have to lose good officers’ to other agencies before you make a change?
maybe we should have better and less police officers, do we really need that many officers
Probably not until we get less and dumber criminals.
Frank Wilson,
Are you serious? Do you know how few we have compared to our city of 75000. That’s only including the IF residents and not how many are actually in town at once.
But hey if your ok with having your house broken into and public safety tells you the “better but less police officers” are busy then there you go.
If you look on the city web site you’ll see the fire department has quite a few more firefighters than there are police. Maybe we should cut them in 1/2 since how many fire do we have compared to the amount of crime that goes on.
Unbelievable!
There SHOULD be more firefighters than police. Are you kidding me right now? We have more than enough officers in this town and it’s not like home burgulary is rampant in our community!
Unbeliveable is right!
Solution:
Compare the call loads of firefighters to police. It’s public record. That will tell you why we need the number of police we have if not more.
Are people really that gullable to think burglary isn’t rampant in our town?
If you consider “a few” every 3-4 weeks rampant….than yeah, this town is probably rampant with crime. I don’t think it’s as bad as you make it out to be. Even the police logs in the paper are mostly full of minor offenses. It’s nothing to keep me frightened and locked away in my home over.
But then I leave my doors unlocked to encourage burglars.
Statistics:
These facts are from: http://www.co.bonneville.id.us/911/iffd.html. This should give us a little clearer picture on what things are like in our quiet little town. Brace yourself (sarcasm):
As of the reported Calls For Service for January 2008:
Fire Dept/EMS Total: 1159
Police Dept Total: 5441 (63 of the 5441 were burglaries)
These stats are only for the month of January 2008. I think it would be safe to say “a few” happens more than every three to four weeks.
Plus were about to hit warmer weather too which you guessed it, crime rate goes up.
One More Addition:
For some reason they don’t have the Calls For Service for the Sheriff’s Office. That was only the Idaho Falls Police Dept.
Another note you learn is the Calls For Service for the Fire/EMS is for all of Bonneville County, and they even cover portions of other counties. I didn’t know they covered part of other counties as well.
Sheriff’s Office:
I located the Calls For Service for the Sheriff’s Office. For January 2008:
Sheriff’s Total: 3959 (14 of the 3959 were burglaries)
By statistics, thus far, the Police & Sheriff are far busier than Fire/EMS.
Gasp!! We all better just run for the mtns then huh?
(sarcasm not intended to hurt anybodys feelings)
Just giving the facts amongst assumptions. More believable that way.
I’ll meet at the top Guest House
Those aren’t “facts” per se’. They were “calls”. Why don’t you tell us how many of those “calls” actually turned out to be valid? I’m willing to bet less than half. You can’t go by 911 “calls”, there’s a lot of nut jobs out there.
Besides, there are bugarlies everywhere you go no matter how big or small the community. No amount of police force is going to stop it from happening. All you can do is protect your home the best you can. Me personally, I’m armed and ready for em.
Hmmm. The issue raised in #58 was that we have too many police, which morphed into because we don’t have very many ‘calls’. Or that the ‘calls’ might not all be valid, and we have few burglaries.
But, burglary isn’t the only thing they have to worry about…it’s a small part of everything the officer ends up taking a call for.
Friends and neighbors, I submit that I am GLAD we have this many police officers that can respond to those calls, because I want to be able to make a call and have a response right away.
THEN someone can tell me later that in their opinion, my call wasn’t ‘valid’…but until then, I want the security of having my call to the police be responded to in a timely manner.
Of course, I’m a foolish old woman. Maybe I’m totally missing the point of these comments?
The “calls for service” thing in the Post Register is very very very inaccurate. If you look closely you’ll often see that the log states there were say 85 calls for service but then they only list 40 of them. What were the other 45?
Also, if you go by the media to get an idea of what crime is like your in a very very fantasy world. I can say with absolute certainty that at least 5 rapes or molestations are reported to the police every single week. Yet you never hear about them because the police don’t advertise that kind of stuff since they are ongoing investigations. The IFPD like many agencies also hides reports from many ongoing investigations so that the investigation is not compromised by the media.
If you take a per capita look at crime in Idaho Falls you’ll be shocked and saddened to learn that per capita many of our crime rates are equivalent to that of Los Angeles or New York, especially certain types of violent and property crimes. The only places we tend to be better in are things related to gangs since despite the media’s attempts to portray a gang problem here we do not have one at all relative to those places.
Also, about the “too many police” officers comment. How many officers do any of you think are on duty patrolling at a given time? Would you be shocked to learn that on a typical weekend day there are usually only six or seven officers patrolling the ENTIRE city? Thats one officer per ten thousand residents and not even counting the influx of out of towners we get. How about nighttime? Typically there are only four or five officers on duty after 2 am.
Excellent point Nemisis!
Guest House it doesn’t matter if they are false or made by nut jobs, because the police still has to respond to them. That was the point I was trying to make.
All 5441 of the Calls For Service is what a single, and sometimes double, police officer(s) had to respond to.
Plus you would have to factor in the amount of time they would have to take to find out if the call was bogus or not.
One thing that stands true is most of us like things done in a timely manner.
I would say there would be a lot of complaining to the Mayor, Chief, or Sheriff, if it took the police 20 to 30 minutes just to show up.
I sure hope comment #72 is false. That is very disturbing.
Something else to remember about the stats others are looking up - a person can be charged for burglary if they planned or had intent to go into a business and shoplift. My dumb cousin went to the GT mall one afternoon with a few friends and shoplifted a handful of earrings and necklaces. They were charged with burglary, it was reduced to “petit theft” and she was given her punishment.
That type of “burglary” is obviously a lot different than a home burglary or store robbery, which themselves are much scarier. Goes to show we really need to know the facts behind the stats before making judgement about how safe it is here, or not.
All in all, we always say our area is pretty safe to live when it comes to “anonymous” crimes in comparison to other cities, especially violent crime here in SE Idaho where you can almost always see a link b/w the offender and victim. Elsewhere the nightly news is full of crime after crime. I guess we should be thankful our news tends to be “boring”.
I agree with the comment above about stats are better than guesses or assumptions. True it may not have all the details, but it has